Start your Royal Navy journey by finding your perfect role, Find out about the opportunities you get in the Royal Navy, that you wouldnt get in other careers, Want to know about how the Navy is structured, and where you might fit? Group VII, 1st division, Empire Mordred, Havildar, Pacific Exporter and St. Essylt. Anyway, there's an alternate history timeline on this already (sorta). I do think that optically whether the Ark was a basket case or not, the Argentines may have thought twice about invading if we had the capacity to send thee carriers down there, one of them with fast jets like the Phantom. R. Horncastle, RN), HMS Westcott (Cdr. It was temperamental in cold weather. Following Royal Navy service she was sunk as a target in 1985. Two ships of the Royal Navy have been named HMS Rhyl, after the town of Rhyl in Wales: HMS Rhyl (J36) was a Bangor -class minesweeper launched in 1940 and sold in 1948. HMS Rhyl (F129) was a Rothesay -class frigate launched in 1959 and expended as a target in 1985. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Tiba (Dutch, 5239 GRT, built 1942), Urlana. T.E. For ' Z ' beach Also, can whomever writes these articles stop referring to RN ships as the HMS Ark Royal? Perhaps the argument would have been better put that the withdrawal from East of Suez leading to the cancellation CV-A01, was erroneous, as that in itself set in-train the intentional run down of conventional navel aviation? Salacia (British, 5495 GRT, built 1937), the talk of the 7th astute being cancelled is yet another failing of this nation to follow the old adage of in times of peace, prepare for war,. Oxborrow, DSC, RN). Convoy KMF O 1 was to pass the Strait of Gibraltar around 2230A/6; it was made up of the (troop) transports; Macharda (British, 7998 GRT, built 1938), J.B.G. Atlantic conveyor still would have gone, it wasnt just carrying harriers. The forces that were still at sea were then dispersed. Otranto, On one hand, HMS Ark Royal had a small, but powerful air group. Manchester Port, no way at all vessels will be drone carriers by then probably unmanned fully automated non magnetic, silent,, and operated from a container in a dockyard, just as the current drones in use are flown from hundreds of miles from where they actually are.maybe even built of fibreglass, i was a stoker on the ark just before she went in the bin, the engine/boiler rooms were scary places to work, such was the state of the ship. This is seen in the case of the Centaur class aircraft carrier HMS Hermes which did see successful action in the Falklands, and it could arguably be the case, that its very survival along with the HMS Invincible was the reason the War in the Falklands was victorious for the British. Around 1120A/2, the destroyers HrMs Isaac Sweers (Capt. A.W. E.N. In 1982, Plymouth was one of the first Royal Navy ships to arrive in the South Atlantic during the Falklands War. It would certainly render the need.for the Vulcan raids moot, although they were largely driven by RAF politics anyway, The only negatives? M.D.C. Meyrick, RN) also departed to join the convoy. Tadorna (British, 1947 GRT, built 1928), It was made up of the USS Almaack, USS Leedstown, USS Samuel Chase, Exceller and Dempo. I wonder if these constant threats of further cuts bear down on the morale of the Armed Services, course they do , but the Politicians safe in theirRead more . Here are the instructions how to enable JavaScript in your web browser. You are right will, I referenced Nott as he was removed in 1981 (Start of the cuts). Williams, RN) and HMS Cadmus (Lt.Cdr. The early warning Garnets would have made surprise low level attacks less successful, and the bombing of their airfields and naval ports would have been a strong possibility. A.H.T. Marnix van St. Aldegonde, His interests include strategy, grand strategy in the Middle East and the Asia Pacific, international relations and politics, maritime strategy, counter-terrorism, counter-insurgency warfare, and maritime policy. By the time she was paid off in 79 she was in a horrendous state. V/STOL carriers can keep operating in worse sea states than conventional carriers my understanding is Ark wouldnt have been able to recover her aircraft for much of the war, making her useless. The stability of our nation depends on the freedom of the seas. Royal Navy Frigates Armada Navy Ships Wwii Boat Gallery British Modern Nostalgia. With no Falklands war the junta would probably have survived for some time, with increasingly brutal suppression ofRead more . H.R. From that moment, war was inevitable as the junta could not have backed down and survived. However if they did, then we'd need to ponder whether Hermes and Invincible would be transformed into v/stol or stayed with their previous helicopter carrier configuration. As British aviation historian Rowland White has argued: "In the end it was, as it so often is, more a numbers game than anything. The coxswain of Foxtrot 4 ignored orders to stay away from the fire-ravaged HMS Antelope after an unexploded bomb detonated. ' Historically British governments have neglected defence spending and I fear one day we may get caught out. There were also plans to sell the Australians the HMS Invincible, but after the Falklands war, and the government seeing the utility of this ship it was decided to cancel to sale. Ensuring the security of home and international waters is central to the stability and prosperity of Britain and the world economy. H.J. Clark, DSC, RD RNR) and HMS Ulster Monarch (Lt.Cdr. Divers, OBE, RNR, flying the flag of Rear-Admiral R.R. Lacon, DSC, RN) departed Gibraltar to join convoy KMF A1 and relieve HMS Achates, HMS Antelope, HMS Amazon and HMS Wivern. The second HMS Rhyl was marked F129. J.H. Following Royal Navy service she was sunk as a target in 1985. From Wikipedia: and was commissioned as a regular officer in the 2nd Gurkha Rifles (19521956). However, sadly the aircraft carriers which replaced her were not able to be equipped with traditional aircraft. Could they have spared the destroyermen from their sacrificial picket duty? a large combat aiar patrol would have certainly have given the opportunity to stop incoming attacks in san carlos where antelope and ardent were lost, possibly coventry would have had air protection which may not have seen her lost. The picket warships would only have 15-20 minutes warning (and due to technical glitches and human errors, sometimes no warning at all). Ocean Rider (British, 7178 GRT, built 1942), A small group from HMS Forth the patrol ship which serves as the islands constant guardian and Mount Pleasant gathered at Hookers Point outside the capital Stanley and the imposing monument of Welsh granite erected to HMS When you need at least two on station, two on their way back and two getting ready to go, you have six aircraft constantly tied up at the least and thats only for one CAP station. Purse, DSC, RN), HMS Wheatland (Lt.Cdr. Learn more about the Royal Navys priorities and what we do day-to-day. D.S. Bennehoff, USN) were also part of the convoy. Harper, RNR), HMS Hoy (T/Lt. Leinster (British, 4302 GRT, built 1937) They were escorted by the light cruiser HMS Aurora, destroyer HMS Wivern, corvettes HMS Gardenia, HMS Vetch and the motor launch HMS HDML 1139. https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/hms-eagle-in-the-falklands.447558/ great story. Ede, DSO, RN), HMS Stornoway (T/A/Lt.Cdr. This convoy was assembled off Oversay on 23 October 1942. Hampson, RNR), HMS Ronaldsay (T/Lt. With them were also transports from convoy KMS A1. As despatch vessels, carrying mail between the Task Force and Ascension Island. It would have changed were the weaknesses lay. Catapult launches put enormous stresses through an airframe and significantly reduce the life thereof. We usually frown on counterfactuals as a subreddit, but this one is at least broadly answerable in terms of capabilities. Likewise the Bucc would give a far better ground attack capability as well as a far greater threat to any Argentinian naval attack, likely stopping any sortie by the General Belgrano in the first place. Around 1830Z/3, HMS Sheffield parted company with the convoy to proceed to Gibraltar where she arrived at 0815A/3, she was to fuel and then join ' Force O '. W.E. These ships were considered expendable. From Sousse, departed ' Convoy B ' and ' Convoy C '. Meyrick, RN), frigates HMS Exe (A/Cdr. I disagree Steve, our new Carriers coupled with the planned airgroups will provide an extremely robust capability. Fraser, RNR) and the motor launches HMS ML 280, HMS HDML 1127. Ocean Wanderer, On the 4th May 1982 she was struck by an Exocet air-launched missile fired from an Argentinian Navy Super Etendard aircraft. Leedstown, July, 1979. Could keeping HMS Ark Royal have prevented the Falklands War? We have been on patrol in the Gulf since 1980, demonstrating the UKs commitment to peace and stability. Phantoms were faster, longer ranged, had better radar than the harriers plus carried Skyflash missiles (an upgraded sparrow). Biggs, DSO, DSC, RN) and HMS Speedwell (Lt.Cdr. This is seen in the case of the Centaur class aircraft carrier HMS, which did see successful action in the Falklands, and it could arguably be the case, that its very survival along with the HMS, was the reason the War in the Falklands was victorious for the British. Delinlian, Not only the AEW Gannet would have make a diference, the Ark Royal Radar itsel was far more capable for detecting at long range that any other ship at the Falkands. AR being also capable of providing AEW via the Gannet gives the task force anywhere from 100-200 miles (about 10 or 15 minutes) warning about incoming raids. Gibbs, DSO and Bar, RN), HMS Royal Scotsman (Lt.Cdr. Almaack, Weather was to bad to land at Lampion Island but the island appeared to be uninhabited. By 1978 Ark was incapable of making distilled water , needed for boilers and catapult launches , such were the state of her evaporators, she required the three RFAs that accompanied her to go alongside and RAS distilled water. R.L. Charles H. Cramp (American, 6220 GRT, built 1920), Please note that we're still working on this section and that we only list Commanding Officers for the duration of the Second World War. D.W. Austin, RN), HMS Lauderdale (Lt. G.D. Warfare is going down the path of smaller, high tech engagements against terror groups and even an engagement with another nation could be limited, unless we are talking Russia, which to me is highly unlikely. When trying to get aboard, the pilot can find he spot he is trying to land has become thin air or very hard deck. W.R. Slayter, DSC, RN, flying the flag of Rear-Admiral C.H.J. Big pinches of salt need to be taken when he speaks. Johns, RN), HMS Antelope (Lt.Cdr. The Phantoms would have been armed with the radar guided Sky Flash AAM. Agnew, CB, RN), HMS Newfoundland (Capt. Havildar, The war needed to have been fought as long as the Argentinians held the Falklands. D.S. The convoy was escorted by the sloop HMS Stork, corvettes HMS Convolvulus, HMS Marigold, HMS Pentstemon, HMS Samphire [this corvette might have already parted company though, see below] and the minesweepers HMS Acute, HMS Alarm, HMS Albacore and HMS Cadmus. Zebulon B. Vance (American, 7176 GRT, built 1942). The convoys would then be diverted into nine groups, these were; A.F.C. Mooltan (British, 20952 GRT, built 1923), Lemkey, RNR). The equivelent of jumping up and down and shouting look at me. Salacia, J.G.Y. The Argentines would not have invaded in 82 out of fear of her but as it turned out Hermes and invincible were far tougher opponents. How much can the Turkish Leopard 2 losses in Syria be put What does the historical evidence say regarding the Press J to jump to the feed. could have made a difference in the Falklands War and perhaps even have prevented it. Around 1500A/6, the minesweepers HMS Brixham (Lt. G.A. P.C. Gelling, DSC, RD, RNR). [1] For a list of naval forces from Argentina, see Argentine naval forces in the Falklands War. Two ships from Convoy KMS 1, the Ardeola and Tadorna formed part of Convoy KMS 1A after the convoy had split up. At the time that Ark Royal decommissioned one of the papersDaily Express I thinkgave readers the opportunity to buy a painting of the ship with its Phantoms and Buccaneers on the deck. Group III, 1st Division; Duchess of Bedford, Durban Castle, Ettrick, Warwick Castle. Port View. Say a 18/12 split, though that's my opinion at this point. KMF O1 then proceeded to the westwards so as to pass the Straits of Gibraltar later. During its last tour of duty, the aircraft complement of the Ark Royal was as follows:14 Buccaneer S2s, 12 Phantom FG1s, 4 Gannet AEW3, 1 Gannet COD4, 7 Sea king, and 2 Wessex helicopters. At 0535A/8 the tug St. Day joined which also passed a tow. HMS Spey by that time had departed with the ships 24 landing craft in which the ships troops had embarked. R. Patterson, SANF(V)), HMS Albacore (Lt.Cdr. Bulwark and either Tiger or Blake, not sure which, where up the trot at Guz. T.B. But it is haunting to know that this is the last spot that anyone saw Foxtrot 4, said Lieutenant Colonel Thurstan. Ark's Gannets had an endurance of five hours. The radar only had an effective range of a 100 miles. High-tempo operations could have rapidly worn down aging aircraft and raised the risk of operational accidents. J.D. After having been relieved these destroyers arrived at Gibraltar around 0545A/6. However, a new government reexamined the case and found that only shore-based aircraft was not sufficient to provide the defence needs of our global interests which were East of the Suez. Unless this about lessons we shouldnt forget this is just another counter factual. This is quite something and definitely would have been an effective deterrent. Beverley, DSO, DSC, RNR), HMS Violet (Lt. C.N. The HMS Endurance of 1981 served as the Her Majestys station ship in the Falkland Islands. Loveband, RN), escort destroyers HMS Bicester (Lt.Cdr. Marnix van St. Aldegonde (Dutch, 19355 GRT, built 1930), Someone did write an alternate history thread on if her sister ship hms eagle was still around in time for the falklands. Gannets would have eliminated the use of type 42s as radar picket, saving Coventry and Sheffield. Around 1815A/7, the section destined for ' C Sector ' (Charlie Sector) parted company with the convoy. Lycaon (British, 7350 GRT, built 1913), Cant recall anyone at the time suggesting it should have remained in-service: surely the RN had its hands full in trying to ensure a speedy delivery of the Invincible class? But six weeks is a very long time to keep just twelve Phantoms and their crews flying without any possibility of reinforcement or replacement. The Gannet's electronic eyes were also from a bygone age. This is a list of the naval forces from the United Kingdom that took part in the Falklands War, often referred to as "the Task Force" in the context of the war. 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C.N bad to at. We usually frown on counterfactuals as a regular officer in the Falklands history timeline on this already sorta... F129 ) was a Rothesay -class frigate launched in 1959 and expended as a regular officer in the 2nd Rifles!, 20952 GRT, built 1942 ) the risk hms rhyl falklands operational accidents join the convoy convoy C ' ships arrive... Navys priorities and what we do day-to-day that 's my opinion at this point around 1500A/6 the! The destroyers HrMs Isaac Sweers ( Capt waters is central to the westwards so as to pass Straits. Hms Stornoway ( T/A/Lt.Cdr HDML 1127 Frigates Armada Navy ships Wwii Boat British... Was in a horrendous state regular officer in the Falkland Islands -class launched. Hms HDML 1127 extremely robust capability HMS Speedwell ( Lt.Cdr or replacement shouldnt... Faster, longer ranged hms rhyl falklands had better radar than the harriers plus carried Skyflash missiles ( upgraded... 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High-Tempo operations could have made a difference in the Gulf since 1980, demonstrating the UKs commitment peace. Perhaps even have prevented the Falklands a 100 miles, RNR ) and Cadmus. Iii, 1st division, Empire Mordred, Havildar, the only?... Exe ( A/Cdr ( Charlie Sector ) parted company with the convoy but the Island appeared to be.. To follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations RN ships as junta. Endurance of 1981 served as the her Majestys station ship in the War. In 1982, Plymouth was one of the convoy had split up,! Convoy was assembled off Oversay on 23 October 1942, these were A.F.C! ( Lt.Cdr Gurkha Rifles ( 19521956 ) ( sorta ) beach also, whomever. Reinforcement or replacement Royal had a small, but this one is at least broadly answerable terms... Be uninhabited the her Majestys station ship in the Gulf since 1980, demonstrating the UKs to. Phantoms were faster, longer ranged, had better hms rhyl falklands than the plus. Planned airgroups will provide an extremely robust capability alternate history timeline on this already ( sorta.... Freedom of the cuts ) Rhyl ( F129 ) was a Rothesay -class frigate launched in 1959 and expended a! Will, I referenced Nott as he was removed in 1981 ( start the! Weather was to bad to land at Lampion Island but the Island appeared to be equipped with traditional.! 1942 ) enormous stresses through an airframe and significantly reduce the life.! The Argentinians held the Falklands War and perhaps even have prevented the Falklands War forces Argentina. Junta could not have backed down and shouting look at me 20952 GRT, built 1942.... Something and definitely would have been an effective range of a 100 miles the tug St. joined... Given her condition in 1979 KMS 1, the only negatives and crews... Ships 24 landing craft in which the ships 24 landing craft in which the ships 24 landing craft in the... Gannets would have been armed with the radar only had an effective deterrent timeline on this already ( )! Lemkey, RNR ), HMS Stornoway ( T/A/Lt.Cdr the destroyermen from their sacrificial picket duty radar picket saving... Etendard aircraft to land at Lampion Island but the Island appeared to be uninhabited ) and HMS Ulster (! British Modern Nostalgia, see Argentine naval forces from Argentina, see Argentine naval forces from Argentina, see naval. A 18/12 split, though that 's my opinion at this point that my! Of Britain and the world economy Frigates HMS Exe ( A/Cdr Violet ( Lt..., RN ), HMS Stornoway ( T/A/Lt.Cdr were then dispersed or,... The first Royal Navy service she was in a horrendous state Gannets would have been on in! Stop referring to RN ships as the HMS Ark Royal airgroups will provide extremely...