Depends on the BR really. One thing to mention is that german 6.7 is actually really good against soviet 6.7, it's the stabilized brit APDS ATGM throwers and impenetrable american T__ heavy tanks that really hurt. Yes, but we should be discussing balance based on tanks that are actually in the tech tree. More like genre savvy actuallyI know the score. Mobility is simply king in this game. Step forward progressively, oh how I haven't seen that argument before. Those things can shrug off even the 10.5 in close combat. This by the way also the reason why you quite often see the SDKFZ 234, a BR 2,7 vehicle, in 6.7 matches. Yes, but just pointing out that "Japanese bias" has been used before. If it's perfectly fine as a comparison, then why is CQC fighting the rulewhen GJ is designing maps,while we clearly can make it a more interesting battle if every nation can face their strengths and shortcomings on the battlefield. There is big IF in virtually every of your arguments. Same procedure as with Panthers. On paper there is no logical reason why Germany shouldn't be doing much better than these nations which have worse line ups and fight the same threats. encyclopedia. Jagdtiger? That being said I wanted to ask them to get answers, because for me it is important. What? (If you can tell us, ofc I understand you might not be able to.) This is the same reason I don't accept the "muh KV1-B" argument or "muh KV-220" because most players can't even use these vehicles. I have never had the tracks heat not go through the tracks so not sure where you get that I've sank so many games into T series and not once has that happened. 2. This is of course a burden if you're in a CQC situation where the APDS will easily pen your frontal armor. It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. But Germany has little to complain about compared to the French. Relative merit is in play here. Armor. Every time I play 5.7, I see a lot of Tiger I. It takes longer to aim for weak spot, than the Tiger II stopping and just point at your silhouette. Ugh. It also means I don't need to drive around to flank you when I can justwait for a minute or twoand then proceed to shoot youonce I have visual. #15. You can go through things but often times you die. To say that Germany suffers over this is wrong. Also, let's not forget that Germany has a proper line-up of SPAAs till 8.0, if you discount the gap between 6.7 and 8.0, so 1.3BR gap. Thats why you will often see lack of initiative and decisiveness on German teams. While the M18 can potentially be used for flanking regardless of tier--this is true of any vehicle--it is also a vehicle that can be wiped out even by lowly 1.0s. The AR with no armor, lackluster speed, no guns, or perhaps the TA which can only do bomber hunting and perhaps a few light vehicles however with limited ammo and frail frame it will get eaten by .50 CAL You can check the loadout options, you either have to pick a fighter, bomber or an attacker, there are no multi task missile and bomb armed super props that can wreck havoc on the ground and then dominate the sky. It was introduced in Update "Red Skies". A serious discussion about Axis teams at tier 4 and why they seem to be consistently bad.PLAY WAR THUNDER FOR FREE AND GET 50GE FOR FREE: http://warthunder.. I agree though that the lines should be redone, but not only for Germany but for all the nations. FInally we can do much more than to just get flanked. To believe that mobility is the only thing matters is to ignore almost everything that matters in a match. No, the good players, because we need to play with this.. other 90% of the other players, that only got enough braincells to press W. Just carry, its what I do. for example to prove what i said u can see that with panther A br reduce to 5.7 germany teams improved a lot, because panthers have much better gun handling than tigers. If you compare the Panther and M18, the M18 is quicker but is not armored nor as well armed. I am losing a little over half my team (if my team is made up of mainly germans, which it generally is, otherwise about a quarter leave) before the 3 minute . They usually tend to be just as useless as those M22s too. On the other hand, allied planes get the bomb loads because their cannons/mgs are less effective against German meds and heavies. Sit in cover, spot an enemy in third person, pop out, shoot and repeat. If he sees that you do dare to cap he will just rush back because he has the speed. while proclaiming yourself in some sort of 'neutral good' position. In an one on one battle with one cap point andrough, uneven terrain you will lose against the M18 in your panther 8 out of 10 times. A Pz IV F2 can also lol pen a KV-1, Churchill or ARL-44 and probably knock them out with one shot from either front or side. What about T95? And since most Panther drivers know that, they usually just camp. I've recently been having a bad time grinding in German jet battles, and I feel like my grind is somewhat pointless. It's not pleasant to head into an area that's being directly contested, but if you want to win that's how you do it. This has been an universal issue for all the nations since they have switched to the formula instead of historical documents, a reasoning which I can somewhat understand. Its not like I am proposing to ram the enemy. Even I--a German player myself--am commonly hounded over this, despite presenting a great deal of strong testimony thats based on many years experienc. Thats because the Germans don't have more modern light tanks in the game. - During all that time you will be sitting in your spot hoping that the enemy pops up exactly where you predict it knowing that he could also pop up behind you. With so few vehicles in their selections at 4.X and 6.X, the Americans and Russians face much worse situations with uptiers. Like I said earlier I think it's important to take a step back and realize what we are talking about here isn't just a drag race but definitely more complicated than so. In other words it's very hard to find a proper backup. Thats because the Germans don't have more modern light tanks in the game. You have to constantly be aware of this. Now the GER 6.7 lineup is missing a proper medium to counter some of the russian meds. I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. So you have to switch ammo which is a drawback. It's very weak side armor also means that it's close to pointless to angle it, compared to the Tiger I. (Saint Nicholas Bible, CIVIC Worship The Good Book, & Queen Elizabeth II Bible are the same book with 3 different Seems many new players fell to this trap. Are there no third positions or one that is at least more pragmatic? When I play american tanks I always use the .50s to take out barrels, it's really effective as long as your enemy has a gun calibre less than 100mm. That's just how a downtier works no matter the battlerating. German CAS planes are generally heavy fighters, attackers, and bombers whereas the premier US/UK CAS planes are well equipped fighter bombers. I have bought the Su-11it is not even funny how broken it is, as soon as my pilot had a bit of skill points accuired it did not pose a challenge to kill people in most situations with the plane. Germany has a poor tree layout that enables progression at unusual rates that hurts its players and deprives them of experience unless they actively (and wisely) choose to go the slower route. But in that case the T95 is also a good flanker. The Challenger 2 is the third vehicle of this name, the first being the A30 Challenger, a World War II design using the Cromwell tank chassis with a 17-pounder gun. I almost never see the Swedish Centurion, no matter playing on or against British team. Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? If you don't. I tested you 50 cal theory and it can be done but it takes so many rounds and reloads its not an arguing point at all. You can't aim when they shot in your direction. It's just so effective and has a good size-able ammunition pool. Also, most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from such ranges. Is this what we might expect at some point? Their is a perfect blend of fast paced numbers (Warcurse, Escalation) and slower, more groove-oriented thrash in the vein of Pantera's Cowboys From Hell, in particular Destroy What Destroys You. That advice is not about any narrative, its about the best way around that shortcoming. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans, 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Weaponry, The turret is 200mm thick unless you shoot the edges. Example, an M18 is freaking fast compared to a Panther or any other German Tank of that tier. It is really frustrating when we can't have any machine guns on top of the panzers period. There's only one brit 6.7 with atgms, but theres like 5 total with stabs and apds, Also no, the long 88 does not go through T__ tanks with ease, you have to shoot for weakspots which is quite difficultif the enemy is moving or at long range. Which is why its more rewarding when they pull it off as they had to put more effort into making it work and that's what people need nowadays a challenge. I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. All in all, these things boil down to the sort of trade offs that are to be expected. He can cap first and when wait till in an ambush till you start to decap. It should be 6.7 or 7.0 at best. Because heat rounds don't care about armor. Still a lot more intuitive. No he won't hide/wait in a fast boi,he'll drive to your side of the map to look for you if you keep him waiting. If it would be all open flatlandlike it was like in the battle for Prokhorovka, how much fun would it be if your whole team always faced circumstances where your mobility perks were objectively neglected, especially the aspect where you have to always emerge in to the open for capturing points - the most usual way of winning a battle? Like bombing out caps or sniper ridges. its guncan flank you with a shell from across the map, Same as the above, never send a tank to do a shell's work. Those three qualities are what control the tank's ability. Theirs only one stabilized apds atgm thrower and its premium. That's a big if there, an M18 still isn't fast enough to out run a gun so its unlikely for them to survive long enough to retreat out of an ambushand flank you, heck even half of them that do make it out get blown up latertrying to flank you as they may become careless with hatred. Or if the hull is exposed, anywhere of the hull. However there comes the real germany suffers thing. And in realistic they are mainly on maps with japan fighting on one side. Just an observation maybe its just me. Another thing, soviet top tier vehicles are fully in meta, with T80B, T72A or T80U you get into action really fast, you have anti-panic shot armor layout, fast reload. One advisory to all readers interested in posting: before you do post, be warned that there are people who will likely attack you for not buying into the Germany suffers claims. So again, on the standard map with cap in the middle the Panther will usually be the last to arrive at the cap. Originally posted by kamikazi21358: Originally posted by theGoddes: brits are nerfed into the ground. Eh, the significance of this is overstated. Only switch to the 3rd auto gear if going down hills and on flat roads. Pretty immune to 88's. Again as stated before in other threads it is an option it is not viable in most instances as you typically just die. The real question would be if you can deny the enemy taking the capture point from long ranges, which would be a resounding no. Not enough apparently the M41 appears to be shrouded in mediocrity that is the M41. Personally, I'd rather be able to harm an enemy frontally than a bit faster than him but forced to flank. It requires however quite some skill to shoot targets in RB from a far and you still lose if noone caps. I don't think the hull of the king tiger is worse, it's obviously better, I'm just saying it's not better by a huge margin. Objectives are death traps usually placed in a way that does favour German CATs, but you know that quite well. The cas exists but people act like fighters dont exist in the German tree that can do as the same thing. This leads to US players spamming the turret and thus smoking the gunners view. An Panther however loses his main advantage of better armor. (This topic will likely be flooded by people doing exactly this or otherwise trying to hijack the thread.). While it is true that many people, with all sorts of involvement in other trees, play Germany it is also true that many of the people who play the German tree only play the German tech tree. Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. Penetration analysis is bugged with AP and APDS. Mobility is the aspect that most German vehicles are less focused on than their peers, but this is made up for by the Germans better firepower/armor than their peers. If a person is to look at other trees and seek to understand the problems they face, far worse MM can be found. As far as I know, nothing about that have been mentioned since it was "being worked on" back in 2017. In the early days I would have now I just think its better to grab a turtle and snipe, small and fast is for fun whenyou want to explore or get bored. Spitfires can see the issue. Asparagus can be eaten raw as well as cooked, it is used as a remedy for urinary . APCR is not a viable option, especially on T__ which can take an 88 to the breech and only turn yellow. Other nations have a lot of fast backups with good guns, like the M18, T114, M50, ASU 85, Falcon etc. Falcon is especially broken as it handles like a light tank with 110mm of pen a super rapid fire rate. He will command the rules of engagement and the battleground not you. What makes teams such an acute problem? Are you serious? Also, you're very wrong about Tiger syndrome. Stop placing artificial nerfs on German vehicles and weapons; Mk 103s should have the same accuracy as allied autocannons, Panther APCR should have the historical ~260mm of pen instead of the laughable 228mm of pen in-game, and so on. warrior412, February 10, 2020 in General & Upcoming. Isn't it also truethat many of the people who play the american tree only play the US tree? Are there plans to move overpowered vehicles (like Xp-50 or Su-11) to a more reasonable br rating? All of these things are important, with at least one being exceptional for a vehicle to be any good generally. sdkfz 123 panzerspahwagen ii luchs fast . yes in the real world and on paper, but in a game where you play the same maps over and over again and know all the ways hideouts. I think it's important to call out that there are a lot of different aspects to mobility. 2. (I guess this is closely connected to the two major questions above (being interactions and economy)). Not possible. Tracks cover most of the hull so thats a no-go unless you're literally 10m away. Once he has spotted you, you are basically dead. Bad gun handling in the -5 degrees gun depression, only 24 deg/sec aced vs 40 degree/sec aced for most western MBTs, 7.1s reload, slower than 120mm which is 6.36 or 6 seconds. Say it in a few years and I'll take it as an excuse but until then I'd still say a solid 70% of the playerbase has them. Most of the time they use their speed to cap the mid point rather than setting up a scouting position. If your going to pull the hvars are the best thing out their it shows how little you know. And I've never lost my barrel to 50s ever in all the time I've played German tanks. Panthers has not too much problems in their brs. His vocals stand in contrast with the somewhat polished production. The first two points can be resolved by reforming the German tree to not have the jumps that it has and by requiring players to unlock more vehicles to progress to such higher BRs (as other nations have). Noone does the same with panthers. No matter how well you argue or what evidence you cite, you will inevitably be attacked by the people who cling to beliefs of German victimhood if you speak out against it--the believers dont want to hear dissent--just know about that. 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